Das Landsknechtlager

Drachenfest Planung => Allgemeines => Thema gestartet von: Tibor Pongracz am 16. August 2018, 23:36:52

Titel: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Tibor Pongracz am 16. August 2018, 23:36:52
Long story short: I had a discussion with the Red Avatar about letting the Landsknechts to name a champion of the LKL, and apply this champion to join the Tournament of the Champions. The Red Avatar had a concern: if the LK champion wins the tournament and gets the prize (a dragon egg), what would happen to that egg? He is not sure that the dragon egg is in a safe place in the LKL... ;) I asked the Red Avatar that if we bring him an idea about what we plan to do with that egg, and he agrees, will he let us join the Tournament the next year (2019), and he said YES. After this we had a short conversation with the Obrist, but I was not sure that the first ideas (a big omelette, or an auction) would please the Red Avatar, also it would be a silly idea to stand in front of him and tell these... So I had an idea that if we won, we will give the dragon egg to the Temple of the Dragons to find a good place for it. Obrist agreed with it. This was near the end of the DF'18, so I had no chance to talk the Red Avatar again, but next year this could be an interesting project - if You find this idea worthy.
(If you are interested, I can tell the backstory of this tournament idea, but that is strongly character related, and it is probably offtopic in this forum.)
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Grilly am 17. August 2018, 06:04:56
We can sell it. Or leave it at the tournament site, so anybody can grabb it.
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Runa am 17. August 2018, 08:25:12
I'd put it up for auction. The other camps can then try to buy it from us. If nobody is interested, we could still give it to the temple..
I don't know about you, but my character is more into getting money than into being nice to dragons.. they are great creatures you have to respect, but - what is in for me if I'd put the egg to the temple?


Does that mean that we'd have an intern championship to decide who's going to be the LKL Champion? (Sounds absolutely great to me)
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Sonir am 17. August 2018, 12:20:06
The problem with the auction is that while indeed we would get money from it, I see no way that the Red avatar would allow it.
Basically it would mean one camp had two contestant.
So leaving it at the temple is the the safe bet that the avatar would approve and we could be in the championship.

And we can make money from it too. Either letting the contestant be bribed or just simply winning it and making it into a PR stunt that we can beat the camps even in a one on one fight so they should REALLY hire us.
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Schwannek am 17. August 2018, 12:40:29
I'm not that firm with all that Dragon's background, but isn't the red School of magic in the Dragonlands something with necromancy? Just asking for a friend.

I think selling it seems the most logic way on the first thought, but it is kind of lame exchanging something like this for boring coins. But what could it be, we desire from a Dragon or an Avatar or a camp?
I think of something creating play or reputation? Why not something like a visit from an Avatar to the camp, an opportunity to present us to those really holding power. We could present our camp and show a Drill and afterwards exchange gifts? Or we get hired for parading with the Avatar through Aldradach and before his enemys. So we can get something the Red likes: honour and something we like: money. And we would in case get some opportunitie to show the camp.
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Kendra am 17. August 2018, 13:13:03
I'm not that firm with all that Dragon's background, but isn't the red School of magic in the Dragonlands something with necromancy? Just asking for a friend.

I think selling it seems the most logic way on the first thought, but it is kind of lame exchanging something like this for boring coins. But what could it be, we desire from a Dragon or an Avatar or a camp?
I think of something creating play or reputation? Why not something like a visit from an Avatar to the camp, an opportunity to present us to those really holding power. We could present our camp and show a Drill and afterwards exchange gifts? Or we get hired for parading with the Avatar through Aldradach and before his enemys. So we can get something the Red likes: honour and something we like: money. And we would in case get some opportunitie to show the camp.

The Red School of the "Guild of Dragons" (before; Guilde of Magic) is the way of necromancers, yes. There are some options for dead charakters, to act with a Red-School-Magician.

First problem - we don't have a possibility for transport - Dragon Eggs are only movable in a special box, and only the Dragon-Camps (members of the competition own one. So we've first the problem of transport. Then, every camp can take an egg if they can get it - don't forget, we've not hundred of soldiers to defend it.

I think, Schwannek's ideas are a good base: We try to make a deal AND gain reputation. What's about: When we win, we declare the Egg to a gift for a Dragon Camp. the price is a blessing for our presence at the Drachenfest from the avatar of this camp.

(An we're, at this moment, coincidentally, prepared to escort it to a camp (a normal contract). ;-) )

I suggest to give it to the Red - it's the nearest Dragon to our camp ...?
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Schwannek am 17. August 2018, 13:18:43
Or the one with the least eggs, to stir competition. More war more profit?
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: MacGuffin am 17. August 2018, 13:52:11
Couldn't we just give the egg to the the second place and use the first place to advertise?

Or the one with the least eggs, to stir competition. More war more profit?
Or this.
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Sonir am 17. August 2018, 14:26:04
The problem is still that the red avatar has to okay the whole thing and he won't do it unless he also likes the idea. And he doesn't like the idea of we simply selling the egg and stuff like that. I would wager that simply giving it to someone we just defeated would make him a little grumpy.

Giving it to the Temple is a safe bet, that probably would have no opposition from the Red, and we can still advertise ourselves in the meantime.

Giving it to the weakest camp could be more beneficial to us (maybe we could get some good PR with the Gold avatar this way) but I'm very unsure if the Red would be okay with this, probably depends on how we present it to him
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Schwannek am 17. August 2018, 14:42:07
Why? We as a camp have absolutly no use for an egg beside selling it one way or another. We can't keep it, we can't transport it, we can't use it in any other way. If he's not able to see this than it's of no use to discus any further.

So all we can do is to deside woh should get it in our opinin. And thats is an oportunity to create game. As I've said, just selling it for coins is the most boring way. Gifting it to someone, to keep the war going, can't be something the Red is against. Creed is something, his blue broher can deal with, you mentioned the golden Avatar and we might find explanations why the others could approve.

Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Tibor Pongracz am 17. August 2018, 14:49:48
Thinking about the ideas:

1. Donating to the Temple.
This case I'm almost sure that Aldradach became a more interesting place, because all Color camps need that egg. Heavy City Guard presence around the Temple (or, some competent forces paid for it, like LK :) ), less presence on other places. This is a possibility to bring more subtle military actions to the city, from the Camps. Sneak-ins, ninjas, magic attacks against the Temple, pissing off all dragons, etc. I don't think that donating the temple causes peace. But, this is the safest thing in my opinion for us, it can please the Red (or at least I can imagine that he agrees), and also the Gold because of the balance. Also, the egg is way too white, boring, could use some painting; we should keeping it unharmed, yes, but not untouched by skillful artists ;)

2. Giving to the weakest Camp.
This is a lovely idea too, because one of the camps must declare that they are the weakest, and convince the others (or some judge, like an Avatar), this is an interesting licit / coming out. But I'm afraid that this will be interesting only for a closed circle of people, and we (and 99% of Df people) will have no info or other exciting outcome from it, causes no extra in-character gameplay. I'm not sure that it will please the Red, because supporting the weakest is probably not his domain (and not sure he will agree this deal), but sure will please the Gold because of balance.

3. Sell it / licit / auction etc.
More money = more inertia and more fun, yes :) But, I don't think Red would accept this as he is not a merchant type.

4. Creating a "king of the hill" battle for it (new idea)
Egg is on the center of the battlefield, all interested camps can assemble a hit squad with equal headcounts, and let them fight for it. This creates more game, but we as LK are out of this fun, unfortunately. But Red loves war, so I can imagine that he agrees this.

Yes, it would be exciting to have an intern LK champion selection tournament!

About carrying the egg: we can ask the Red that if he agrees, lend us an egg-bearer to carry it to the designated area.
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Kendra am 17. August 2018, 15:24:28
To: "king of the hill" - this is the same as the tournament is - red-dragon-way to catch an egg. But, if we say; "the "hill" is the middle of the battlefield" AND inform the Orcs, that there can be a interesting situation...
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Tibor Pongracz am 17. August 2018, 15:29:29
Runa:
"I don't know about you, but my character is more into getting money than into being nice to dragons.. they are great creatures you have to respect, but - what is in for me if I'd put the egg to the temple?"
Lambert, my character had a serious break point in his life, and decided to turn more towards music and nice ladies and silvers than die for three coppers a day. He went to the Temple of the Dragons to learn a lot about their domains, nature, light and dark sides, and decided that no dragon deserves to die for it. All of them has some interesting aspects that resonates with Lambert: ha can be violent, loves life, sometimes helps out poor friends / rotmeisters ;), loves music, embraced change to citizen from soldier etc., but still has nothing to do with magic, and dark sides of the dragons.
As I wrote in a comment up there, donating the Temple with the egg can cause interesting actions, and not sure that it will end peacefully. And I hope that the outcome will piss off some dragons :)
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Eik am 17. August 2018, 15:43:31
Why dont spend it to the Camp who orders us for the final Battle?
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Sonir am 17. August 2018, 15:50:58
Why? We as a camp have absolutly no use for an egg beside selling it one way or another. We can't keep it, we can't transport it, we can't use it in any other way. If he's not able to see this than it's of no use to discus any further.

I'm pretty sure he can see that, but he is an avatar after all with very firm ideological beliefs. It's our task to make an argument that he likes. And he already stated simply selling it is not compelling him.
So the thing is we probably can sell it BUT we have to present it in a way that is okay with the Red. Simply just saying that is an effortless attempt and also would generate little play opportunities.
That's why we need some creative solution.
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Carlo am 17. August 2018, 18:18:16
I think it would be great if we had a champion at that tournament as it could be quite fun.

to all the ideas.
I like the give it to the weakest camp or the camp with the fewest eggs the most. To make it a bit more open we could say that we will escort the egg and want to give it personally to the avatar. That could create quite a show.

Sell it / licit / auction etc.
This makes ingame a lot of sense but it will be difficult to convince the red avatar. Offgame it doesn't make that much sense to me. It will create not that much play as probably only a few people from each camp will come for the auction. Further more it takes up a lot of daytime that we normally need to fight or get contracts. Lat but not least we get only some copper for it. Copper is nice but in won't be that much and it will be low in relations to what prices are for cookies and pictures after we split it up.


King of the hill
Sounds interesting but I'm not really a fan of wining a tournament to host an other tournament with the same price.

Donating to the Temple
If we do that then we should designate it to something. Not that we actually will get that just so we don't give it away for free.

Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Garfield am 17. August 2018, 18:42:13
Generally, Klara likes money, but as others said, it won't be that much fun to sell the egg. So we need something that gives us reputation.

Id' love to see, how we select a champion in our camp, this would give us many possibilities and play and fun to the whole camp.

I also don't think "King of the hill" makes sense, as it's the same as the championship itself. We also shouldn't give it to the camp who hires us for the final battle, as then they would most likely win, which would also be a bit boring. So it would be more interesting for everyone to give it to the camp with least eggs.

What are the rules for the dragon temple? Could anyone get in there and get the egg? Sounds fair, but not specially fun.

I like the idea, that also the orcs have a chance. But how combine this with reputation for us?
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Schwannek am 17. August 2018, 19:08:39
The Question with the orcs (or dwarves?) is, how they could use/move an egg. I Think there are quite some rules concerning the dragon eggs. Same problem with us keeping it, don't know if this is possible.
ANd yes the Red Avatar is quite firm with his belives, but he is also an SL and I trust he can see a chnace of play for many. So if we have decided for what we think is the most fun to us and others, we can think of a way, presenting it a way he could accept.

But just gifting it to someone is quite lame, We need to get something back. But there have been some ideas around. Maybe there are some more. It may depend on whom to offer the egg. It might be a desicion by the Orbist? Or the Champion?
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Hubert am 18. August 2018, 16:32:03
Some of the facts, that apply in this case:

1.) The Red Avatar hosts the champions tournament, its a competition in his name and he is in the jury. He is donating the price, the dragon egg, I assume (but... I'm not quite sure about this). Therefore its important to gain his interest, so we have a chance to attend the tournament.

2.) We cannot move a Dragonegg, in no case. If someone receives a Dragonegg, outside from a camp, it doesn't disappears. But, you need a Dragonark to move this thing, and you can only have a Dragonark, when you build a ritual place. Dragonarks cannot be borrowed, stolen or whatever. The rules about Dragoneggs are quite extensive, here they are in full length: http://www.drachenfest-larp.info/media/Siegbedingungen_de_en.pdf  (the english part is heavily shortened)

3.) The temple donates every day (including wednesday) a Dragonegg to the camp, which cares the most about their shrine. If we give the Dragonegg to the temple, the temple can double it's own reward on saturday. We should talk with someone from the temple, if this is a valid possibility.
Source: http://www.drachenfest.info/forum/index.php?topic=44056.msg1374287#msg1374287

From my perspective we don't have many options to handle a Dragonegg. It's just about donating to another camp or, maybe, donating to the temple.
I would prefer the temple solution, furthermore I like the the idea, to have a own Landsknecht shrine in the temple. Bauprojekt? :)


This whole stuff can give us a stronger connection to the whole Drachenfest idea itself, what I would welcome. Besides, it gives us a reason to hold a tournament in our camp, to determine our champion (even if I don't like the term in its use at the DF). Sounds fun. :)
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: WentzelSaltzkrust am 18. August 2018, 17:20:43
I do like the Idea a lot, the problem is that if they let us join the tournament, we will create a precedent (Präzedenzfall), so that other Non-Dragon camps like the dwarfs or the Karawanserey could say "Hey, if they're allowed to join, why aren't we?"..
But like we say in germany "asking is free" :D I just think that, even if the red avatar (or the SL behind him) is in favour of us joining Ingame, he or others might not out of game.
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Tibor Pongracz am 19. August 2018, 01:48:26
The precedent is already there, I've heard in the Temple that there was a year when the Red Avatar allowed the Orcs to attend the tournament (this was the spark that started the idea.)

Thank you, Hubert for the facts, I was not aware of that daily donation from the Temple towards the camps.

Having a LKL Dragonark seems like a good idea, because this allows us to have more exquisite contracts about stealing eggs, ambushing other teams who carry eggs and so on.
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Carlo am 19. August 2018, 11:20:35

Having a LKL Dragonark seems like a good idea, because this allows us to have more exquisite contracts about stealing eggs, ambushing other teams who carry eggs and so on.
Well I don't think that Hubert meant that we should get a Dragonark as we would need a ritual place for that and that could be a first step into becoming a dragon camp.
I personally don't like the idea of LKL stealing a eggs as it involves stealth and I don't want us doing this sort of contracts. We can win one in combat or ambush the carriers but for that we don't need an ark the contractor can give us theirs with a team.
Also we do already get contracts involving dragon eggs. At least there was once a contract were we had to camp in  front of copper and look that they won't get any more eggs into their camp. We may or may not have mistook their ram for a Dragonark in the process but that doesn't matter.
This year we also chased a dragonark.
The problem with this kind of work is that we are to slow for that. I don't mean necessarily on the field but we normally need some time to find people which makes a short notice contract difficult.

Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Jupp am 19. August 2018, 11:50:59
I also think that its a bad idea for us to get a dragonark, but to throw in a new idea:
How about we sell sponsorship for our champion, a bit like the blue camp did once to pay us for the final battle. The difference would be that the one who sells those shares takes notes witch camp bought the most, and i case our champion wins the camp that invested the most money gets the egg.
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Hubert am 19. August 2018, 15:25:06
Only the competing camps can have a Dragonark, including Avatar, banner, ritual place, etc. pp. That's not what we want. ;)
Competing camps are: all dragons and chaos / the neverending change (how do they translate the new name?). Only this camps can handle Dragoneggs and win the DF.

The precedent is already there, I've heard in the Temple that there was a year when the Red Avatar allowed the Orcs to attend the tournament (this was the spark that started the idea.)
The Orcs once were part of the competition, with Avatar, banner, the whole stuff. They won the competition in 2004, the following DF 2006 (the DF paused the year in between) was inofficially called "Urukfest". Their status changed 2008 or 2009, I'm not sure. It's a long story, why they don't wanted to compete anymore, it doesn't fit in here.

Fun fact: back in 2004 there was a mercenaries camp, as a part of the competition, too. They sold their Avatar right after the start of the game. ;)
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Garfield am 19. August 2018, 15:30:30
(...) I like the the idea, to have a own Landsknecht shrine in the temple. Bauprojekt? :)
I remember a bad story about Laslo spending hours to build something for the temple, so I would not build anything for them. Just donating the egg and maybe placing something from us in the themple, that we already have or can do easily.


Having a LKL Dragonark seems like a good idea, because this allows us to have more exquisite contracts about stealing eggs, ambushing other teams who carry eggs and so on.
Well I don't think that Hubert meant that we should get a Dragonark as we would need a ritual place for that and that could be a first step into becoming a dragon camp.
Jep.

How about we sell sponsorship for our champion, a bit like the blue camp did once to pay us for the final battle. The difference would be that the one who sells those shares takes notes witch camp bought the most, and i case our champion wins the camp that invested the most money gets the egg.
If you are talking about 3 or 4 years ago, that wasn't sponsorship, that was Jette who hired us personally for the final battle.
But to gain more reputation, I'd say we should involve the important people, as Avatars or Heerführer and not those who have the most money personally.
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Hubert am 19. August 2018, 15:32:11
(...) I like the the idea, to have a own Landsknecht shrine in the temple. Bauprojekt? :)
I remember a bad story about Laslo spending hours to build something for the temple, so I would not bouild anything for them. Just donating the egg and maybe placing something from us in the themple, that we already have or can do easily.
I had a shrine in mind, not a lighthouse like the thing from Laslo! :D
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: WentzelSaltzkrust am 19. August 2018, 17:48:45
If you are talking about 3 or 4 years ago, that wasn't sponsorship, that was Jette who hired us personally for the final battle.
But to gain more reputation, I'd say we should involve the important people, as Avatars or Heerführer and not those who have the most money personally.

I think he ment the "Kriegsanleihen" that the blue camp sold to raise money to buy our camp. Very lovely little cards, I had one on my old Baret.
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: marius_michael am 20. August 2018, 08:39:02
I only Support the idea of Eik. We hold it for the offers of the end battle, maybe some camps get information "who will book the landsknecht for the end battle will get an Dragon egg". Maybe the offers will be bigger again and all of the camps don't know which camp had offered the best quotation. Maybe they push their offers.

We will bring the egg with the box and the People who can Transport the eggs from the red Avatar under the oberist tent and will stock it till the end battle. We have no People who can Transport this egg, no normal human can Transport this.

But i think to hold it longer is a Point, when someone heard that we have an egg, maybe some other camp will fight against us because of the egg or will storm in our camp and i don't know that will give the right playing for the DF?

Dank und Gruß
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Garfield am 20. August 2018, 10:20:54
(...) I like the the idea, to have a own Landsknecht shrine in the temple. Bauprojekt? :)
I remember a bad story about Laslo spending hours to build something for the temple, so I would not bouild anything for them. Just donating the egg and maybe placing something from us in the themple, that we already have or can do easily.
I had a shrine in mind, not a lighthouse like the thing from Laslo! :D
Okay  ;D

@Marius Michael: We have no "Kampfplatz", so big battles are not allowed in our camp (only small battles). And I think, there are special requirements to keep an egg in the camp, which we also don't have. So only possibility would be to help a camp to get the egg in their camp.
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: marius_michael am 20. August 2018, 11:41:50
Because the Kampfplatz....that hadn't interest any orks in last years, they Charge our camp.
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: WentzelSaltzkrust am 20. August 2018, 16:53:24
Everything that involves transporting the egg has one fatal problem:

"If someone receives a Dragonegg at a place other than the camp's own ritual place and doesn't
put it into the respective camp's Dragonark or on the ground of the camp's ritual place, the
Dragonegg disappears within 3 minutes. If the Dragonegg wasn't handed over by someone
else (e.g. it appeared by itself) the Dragonegg remains exactly there where it appeared until
someone picks it up and puts it in a Dragonark"

In addition to that, something that isn't translated but stated in the German rules:

"Sobald ein gefundenes oder geklautes Drachenei in die eigene Drachenlade gelegt wurde, und
man dieses nun aus der Drachenlade herausnimmt und nicht umgehend innerhalb der
nächsten 3 Minuten an einem Kraftplatz sockelt (muss nicht der eigene sein…) oder in eine
Drachenlade legt, verschwindet das Drachenei."

means: if we would transport the egg, no matter with which dragonark, it would disappear once we take it out of said ark to put it in our camp (or the temple).

So the only possibility would be to give the egg to any camp right away. If we decide to "store" it in the arena, we would have to guard it, since that egg would be "free for all" as long as it is lying there.

It may be though, that eggs won in competitions in the city are spawned directly into the camp, I'm not quite sure.


Maybe we should ask the orks what their plan was, if they had won. :D
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: L. Saltz am 24. August 2018, 11:15:11
I like the idea, red should agree to sponsor something like this. They are all about winning stuff in fair fight.

Since we cannot transport the egg and cannot keep it more than three minutes, we should auction off our fighter if he makes it into the finals. Before the fight starts, all camps present can bid, highest bid gets the egg if we win. Would be wonderfully mercenary. Would just have to somehow communicate this before the finals start.
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Seegras am 01. September 2018, 08:55:08
Because the Kampfplatz....that hadn't interest any orks in last years, they Charge our camp.
Yes, but that's because we have a special understanding. This doesn't work with the Rest of the Camps.
Titel: Re: [2018-19] Landsknecht champion in Tourmanent, Red Avatar business
Beitrag von: Kendra am 23. Januar 2019, 20:25:27
Push!

Gemäss dem Protokoll!